Terry Mallin : Welcome to this week’s hot topic and we’re going to discuss as a manufacturing leader, what is the base we use to adopt change within your manufacturing business, and I’m delighted to be joined by Ben Salder from Leaning the Way Today. I’ve have been speaking with Ben for a couple of months and Ben really is a true professional, within the manufacturing market place he’s actually.. Ben’s a change management leaner organisational development consultant, and as I mentioned with a huge amount experience, strong experience within production management and have spent a couple of it with top organisations such as PepsiCo, Toyota and BA, he’s really within the way there up, and but again there’s some projects that Ben’s been involved and he’s lead multiple lean transformation projects across a fallaway of industries, and as from the sport through in mass production, more importantly and this is when I came across Ben, he was named the LEAN top 25 practitioners across Europe in the LEAN management journal, within a manufacturer’s top a hundred list as an inspiring leader, within the manufacturing community. So all that being, Ben I’m delighted to have you on this week’s hot topic to our listeners, you’re welcome.
Ben Salder : Thanks Terry thanks for inviting me unto it.
Terry Mallin : Pleasure, do you just this tell Ben with intro?
Ben Salder : Yeah I’m simply embarrassed my crimson sheets are going nicer with my ginger beard over the next so thank you for the embarrassment.
Terry Mallin : Okay awesome, so we just jump straight in, so why did you become interested in adoption of change?
Ben Salder : It's something I'd always been interested in because it's so core to manufacturing and being a manufacturing leader, but it really kind of came to the fore few years ago when I was asked to be the change lead, on a big bang ERP implementation, so just kind of a little bit of a background on that, so five and a half thousand users went live, same day at the same time straight after Christmas, that was an interesting period time. We went live on time, we went live on budget, we didn't back out the system, we kept the factory going which was an amazing fit really, but it was also a hugely challenging time for me personally, challenged my thinking, challenged my ways of working.
But I was really lucky coming out of that, though I was given some time and an opportunity to really reflect on kind of what had gone well, and what I needed to- what we needed as an organisation to learn from that. While I was doing that sort of thinking about it I thought “actually I've been here before”, going through places like Toyota, been lucky enough to be a leader at Toyota and spending time there, starting to understand actually, what it was, why the adoption change was so important, because there’s a lot of people that talk about change and talk about go live, talk about the implementation, talk about the launch, but success isn't about how well you launch it, success is about how well the change is adopted and how well it's taken on by the team and the people not just around that pure launch and implementation sub phase.
Terry Mallin : Yes okay, so what do you actually mean by so-- you mentioned how well changes are adopted and not taken on by the team, but what do you actually mean by that?
Ben Salder : Yes, it's as close to my heart living up in Cumbria as I do and looking out at an unusually sunny sky I can see some of the fells at a distance which is lovely, but it does kind of make me think about when you're walking in the fells in the hills, it’s a lot at stake, and you get walking up there and you think you getting to the summit of one of the hills, and you get there and you suddenly realize it's false summit. Physically when you get to that point your shoulders go down, your whole demeanor changes, you want to take a break, have a drink, look at scenery, have something to eat, you physically stop and have to take a break, and I suddenly realized that's basically what GoLive was, all that long implementation, you kind of got to that peak and thought “brilliant we’re there” and then suddenly realize that what you've just done is just get five and a half thousand people ready to use your new system and get all geared up for it ready and raring, and they're now full of energy and start to charge off ahead and you're sat there absolutely shattered thinking “I've only just seen the submit at a distance and I thought this was it”.
So it was one of those magic moments you just suddenly realize actually how physically exhausted you are if you only think of the summit being GoLive, if you don't start to think about what the real summit is because there's got to be value in reaching that real summit so you keep going, so you don't just stop and think “I can't carry on” you've really got to understand what the true end point of adoption is.
Terry Mallin : Yes 100 %, I think we can all relate to that as well, you know when you've got your eyes on the end goal and you reach that false summit and it could be the same with as if I mentioning yours within a change environment as make sure that people are all onboard but knowing what the end goal is, what do you see-- you mentioned a bit of value there, is that really used first in business today? I’m interested to know what you actually mean by that.
Ben Salder : People will and change will be successful and people will adopt the change if they understand value at three levels;
The first thing we all need to understand is: what is the value of what we're doing in the overall scheme of things to the overall organisation? Why are we doing it? What is the value to the organisation?
The next thing we need to understand is: how is my contribution to that valuable? How I’m I actually adding to that overall value piece? How can I align what I do so and attribute what I do to that overall goal?
Then the final thing is on that: is we all have to feel valued, you know we do far better work if we feel valued and feel like we've actually here.. we're actually wanted, than if we're just ignored and overlooked.
So it’s that whole piece of, there’s got to be value in the overall piece, your contribution has to be valuable to that and you have to absolutely feel valued for what you do, and if you get all three of those and you've got to get all three, you can't just do one or two you got to get all three of those, you really adopt change and you really get true adoption change, and that's the real difference between thinking about change management getting to GoLive, positioning it all the way through and getting people to really understand it and absorb that and take on this all right.
Terry Mallin : Okay that’s good, so fitting all that together so the big part of this is the people, why would people be joined to your change?
Ben Salder : It’s a really cold paper done back in 2008.. but David Rock, a guy called David Rock wrote a paper in 2008 called SCARF, and it talks about how people are attracted towards a change or driven away from a change depending on their SCARF so the S- Stands for status, the C- stands for certainty, A- for autonomy, R- for relatedness and F- for fairness and when we really start to think about that again in the context of the CRP implementation when I was starting to play with that, it's an example a lot of people, got there was one guy who was the expert user on the old system, everyone wants this guy, you have a question about the old system you didn't bother going anywhere else you just went to this guy, and he was a really great guy, really great guy, could be a bit crumpy at times at the count bill, and I was involved in a conversation we're talking about—maybe if he still insists he wants to go I said “we don't need to include him since he’s only good for the old system he’s not good for the new system”, I just sat there and went “wow, that’s interesting isn’t that?”, so let's just kind of think about that individual, so as he stood there before the change, before the RP implementation, before that change project his status was high, not hierarchically in the organization but his status was high because people went to see him, his certainty was high because he kind knew where he sat in the scheme of things, he knew what future looked like he was comfortable with that, his autonomy was high because he was allowed to make decisions, he was allowed to kind of really scope his own future, his relatedness was good because people irrelevant of organizational hierarchy were coming to him, he was having great conversations he was really relating well with other people, and it's vanished his whole value system was reflect-- was positively stroke, he felt everything was fair and it was a good place to be. So all of a sudden this new system comes on, and if you don't include the guy at that, you sit down and think well how’s his status going to be?
All of sudden he’s gone from being the guy everyone wanted to no one wants to talk to, his certainty is actually wiped out, his autonomy is wiped out, his relatedness is wiped out, his fairness unsurprisingly is wiped out. What if you include- as we did, we include that guy in the shaping of the future and you recognize him for what he is, which is bringing that huge knowledge of how the systems were before, what was really good? Wasn’t so good? So what we can learn going forward.
All of a sudden you include him in that way, his status was maintained, it was still good, his certainty had gone down a bit in the short term but he was starting to shape and understand kind of what his future would look like, his autonomy remains to a level was affected but it still remains to a level he could still learn stats, get involved feel like he could really start to shape what that looked like, people were still talking to him his relatedness was still high, and he felt that whatever the change that happened that fairness, it was actually drawn towards it because he said “I'm being treated right, I’m being treated properly, I'm being treated fairly”.
So there's a whole piece and it's really important, I'm doing David Rock it really deserves us just talking about it like this, it's fantastic paper and about ten pages long so it's really useful to age, and it's a great model that we can share with loads of different people, and I've shared it with team leaders, I've shared it with senior leaders and everyone really got it, and they like it because they can start to apply it and think about so what does that look like for the people I’m trying to lead I’m trying to produce as well.
Terry Mallin : Interesting, and a big part of that is the way you discuss this, with Davis Rock is actually, starting to think like you’re an audience, and actually who’s it that you’re actually trying to approach too, and how do you both starting to think like..
I came across my team and I came across a really interesting technique in a book called Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers and Changemakers, this guy called Dave Gray came with this tool-- technique called empathy mapping, what it does and it's a great technique I’ve used in a whole host of different scenarios I'll use for examples later, but it gets you thinking, put yourself in the place of someone or a group of people and going right what would.. if I was in that place, in that circumstance what would I be thinking? What would I be seeing? What would I be hearing? What would I be saying? What would I be doing? And here's the wild one what would I be feeling? I love doing that when I'm.. I did it with an engineering organization, he said feeling and everyone all got really kind of nervy about being talked about feelings, and then they then proceeded to feel the feeling box of everything else and the other boxes, it's fascinating, But I used it in a really interesting case today, and there was an organization rolling out their corporate leadership behaviors, and we've all been in large organizations where you get these, you look up and go “that's brilliant, put them in a bottom drawer” and get them out again at your end of year review or a job interview so you can say “yes I demonstrate boundaryless behavior”, how do you do that? And then you just read off word for word what it says underneath it. So what we did was we actually got a large organization, we got rooms of ninety people, and I know, and we had nine competencies ten tables, so literally every table had ten people sat around talking about each of these competencies just one, and thinking about ‘so what would that competency mean if I was an employee, in the future state?
What would it mean if I was a first line leader? Senior leader, managers and a senior leader? We started to build that up and it's brilliant because it meant that you can have an apprentice sat next to a director and both of their viewpoints was equally valid, and it was brilliant because it started to kind of pill it back and we started off with all employees at work in terms of the actual.. the exercise we started off with all employees and mapped that then we went on to the first leaders and so on. So if you do that, by completing it you know what all employees you put yourself in that place about, well what would I as an employer be seeing? And what would I be hearing? Because that tells you then what your leaders should be saying and doing to reflect that, and it does properly invert the pyramid it changes the way people need to be thinking about how they're working with their teams, how they're engaging with their people so rather than just send the directions saying go forth, you really start to understand the end point and how you're affecting that.
We also ban the buzz word bingo so we all love stuff probably use hundreds of it in this chat already, but with we called it pub language, you wouldn’t go down the pub and see mates and say ‘guys I've got a fantastic narrative I'd like to articulate to you tonight” because they’d kick you out fairly quickly, so you thought to say “guys I've got a great story I’d like to tell you”. And they’ll “you know great, tell me better, it can be interesting”. So why do we put a badge on around the neck soon and start articulates narratives rather telling people stories? You know we'd become somewhat different, so there's this whole peace around actually taking people through the journey it’s really important.
Terry Mallin : I know enough like this I'm getting really excited as you’re talking Ben, I can understand the thought process, what are the things that some people might be setting less than-- maybe thinking is, yes that “oh great sounds brilliant but achieve” you know how do you think people.. how do you make that happen?
Ben Salder : Yes and you can get lost in the size scale of the problem and it's dead easy to get lost in the scale of the problem, so it's all about having simple frameworks and models you work with, don't over-complicate. So simple things like build a change framework talking about three phases; initiate, implement, sustain, how do you initiate the project? The change, how do you implement it? and then how do you sustain it, so you’re not just getting to the implementation point and getting to it's a false summit, you thinking about what that sustaining piece is, and then you think about the journey that people are going on, you've got all these tools like empathy mapping and SCARF that I talked about, but just a simple sort of framework again. Before we're taking people through this journey you've got-- you communicate with them, then you educate them, then you train them and then you support, and we often think of these as disparate things, but actually it's a journey that people go through on that.
So the first you need to do is talk to people, communicate what's going to happen, why is it going to be happening? Physically why's it going to be happening? Back to the value piece I was talking about earlier, then the educate is “right so this is why we’re doing it, this is how we're going to do it, this is how it's going to impact you so you can kind of get a feel of it”, you then get the training which is “the click this, do this” the physical hands on tasks side of the activity, and then the last bit is the support, so that when you go out into the real world and you’re applying what you've learned, you know it's.. we've all been there where you've learnt something you get back to work place and there's no way you could.. there's no support for you, nothing has changed, you trying to.. even with the best will in the world, you trying to better-- you try to implement it and you struggle. So it's that whole journey of communicate to people why, educating the people how, training people in the what, and then supporting them to build that capability, and that really starts help us go through that.
Terry Mallin : Makes complete sense and, as I even hosted you need to make this happening, because you know that second structure for people who.. what do you see is the sort of success of this and what people will need to make it happen?
Ben Salder : Having all these frameworks is really cool but the biggest failure for most of these top projects, is a lack of role clarity and goal clarity, of people actually understanding what their role is, what their role in the overall piece is, and actually having that alignment that they value in valuable piece, how is what I’m doing contributing to the overall good?
And when there’s successes, attributing those successes to the people that have done it, attributing actions so that if someone says “I have a great idea what about this” and then we go and do it, you go back and tell them, “your great idea resulted in us doing this, because we did a piece where we shared a rich picture or you’re doing it with large groups, and the big thing we were trying to do was then, if they come up with a great idea it was attribute that idea back to the guys rather than taking the credit yourself, attribute it back hugely, hugely valuable for those guys as well.
Terry Mallin : And so on, putting all your experience and the context because what we’ve went through we’ve got a good.. you kind of summarized what went through, understand your audience, communicate, educate, train and support, and through the job and the adoption of change, and the importance of clarifying each of their individual role and goal, and make sure the project is all on alignment. From your experience Ben, what’s the biggest thing that you have learnt from all of this?
Ben Salder : Really, fundamentally it's think like you're the person that's going to be living in that new world you know after the change, what would you want it to be like? Because if you can put yourself in a place and think about what you'd be thinking, what you'd be feeling, what you'd be doing, and what you'd be hearing and seeing, that really starts shape, working backwards that shapes what your change program should look like, so you talk in the words in the language of the people that are actually using it, rather than getting focus which is dead easy to do, rather just getting focused on the project and hit the milestones and all that because that’s really important, but actually if you do all that and no one adopts the change then you've just spent a huge amount of time and effort and not got anywhere.
So it's that piece around think like the person that's living in that new world, put yourself in that place, use that sort of empathy mapping piece, really get under the skin of it, and then build your plan from there, work backwards from there and continually keep going back round don’t just kind of think that you’ve done it once, keep going back round.
Terry Mallin : There’s somebody who’s in van because when you're speaking, you can actually take the business out of context it gets really odd and I said it appears nowhere so, what it comes across, it can’t be common sense but it's actually having it structured in place, yes actually implement it and knowledge and support, to see it through, and actually being assured on reaching the end goal. My mind is buoyant Ben, absolutely buoyant you've got me thinking about my own business in my mind-- our listeners, thank you very much for that time and knowledge that you’ve shared with us. I was thinking about you making changes, all been through transformation, I'm sure after what you’ve heard Ben say today,
Ben is the man that you’ll choose to follow that. If you’re looking for guidance, for support, then reach out to Ben.. you can connect with Ben directly online just type Ben Salder, and then you can be assured there’s only one profile on there, there is only one Ben Salder that has been said. And more importantly as well if you have a senior business leader, and you’re looking for a coach mentor or you’re looking for coach mentor for your senior leadership team, Ben can also help out as well on that so please do get in touch and learn something of interest, and thank you for your time.
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